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October 23, 2007

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bill fleming

Interesting.

The Federalist papers were published anonymously under the pseudonyms "Publius" and "Philo-Publius."

The Founders considered anonymity an absolute right because they understood that it is almost impossible to speak truth to power any other way.

I wonder if Prager thinks Hamilton, Madison and Jay were being irresponsible.

[Sibby’s response: So the fakey trickster returns with half-truths to distort the message of conservatives. Prager called the hate-filled anonymous “lies, vitriol, obscenities and ad hominem attacks” found today as “irresponsible”, not illegal. So now Fleming do you consider the Federalist Papers to be “lies, vitriol, obscenities and ad hominem attacks”? Are you calling Hamilton, Madison and Jay liars? If the answer to both of those questions is no, then you just issued the typical BS that you find coming from the far-left smear merchants that includes the Senate Majority leader. It is those such as yourself that are attacking traditional American principles fostered by the Founding Fathers with “lies, vitriol, obscenities and ad hominem attacks” who are irresponsible. But keep it up as more and more Americans learn just how extreme and misguided those of you who have hijacked the Democrat Party truly are. At least you use your real name. Perhaps we now understand why some remain anonymous, afraid to disclose who the stupid ones are.]

bill fleming

What is "half-truth" about what I posted?

The truth is, the British ruling class probably thought the colonial revolutionaries (Founders) were being "irresponsible" just as Prager suggests.

The interesting thing is, I'm willing to admit that, and you're not.

That's because you are a closet authoritarian, Sib, and don't understand libertarianism.

Observe how you scold and attempt to shame, and wag your finger. A Tory in disguise, Sib.

No doubt about it. You'd rather have a ruler than a republic or a democracracy. And in your hallucinogenic, meglomaniacal fantasy, that ruler would be you, telling us what God thinks.

[Sibby’s response: What is the half-truth? Bill, you did not answer:

“So now Fleming do you consider the Federalist Papers to be “lies, vitriol, obscenities and ad hominem attacks”?

To say Prager is charging the Founding Fathers with being irresponsible just because they started out anonymous is more than a half-truth. It is an outright lie. And then you go on with an ad hominem toward me with your authoritarian BS. The Declaration Of Independence states that there is an authority, and it is God. This Christian Republic was then defined by that law to grant us and our prosperity with “Blessings of Liberty” through the Constitution. There is our authority. Your “libertarianism” wants to deny God his authority and turn it over to men…a democracy where the mob rules. So due to a majority vote of men (first by the Supreme Court in 1973, and by South Dakota in 2006), the pre-born are denied their God given right to life. It is the pro-abortion crowd who think they are god and can decide you can live or die. It is you that gives authority only to the mother, and not the father, to kill its child. A Christian Republic grants equal protection to even the minority’s God given rights, despite what the majority says. And the American Christian Republic worked much better than any other form of government. It is a shame that the humanists have come out to destroy the freedoms that Benjamin Franklin challenged us to keep by kicking God out with their secularism, and replacing Him with lies.]

bill fleming

By the way, Steve, what a nice polite answer to a perfectly reasonable question.

[Sibby's response: Thanks Bill]

bill fleming

Actually, when it comes to government, Sibby, both the DOI and the Constitution say that the authority is the people.

You have to read the whole thing, not just the parts you like.

The endowment comes from the Creator, the security comes from laws (the Constitution) created by the people and a government that serves at the consent of the governed. It's all there, just read it. Pay close attention to the second paragraph... the one you keep ignoring.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the
pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."


And have a most splendid evening, kind sir.

[Sibby's response: Oh yes, "deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"... whose rights are from God, not the Men serving in the government. Thus we were founded as a Christian Republic, not a democracy ruled by mob rule. It is the role of government officials to protect the God given rights of all.The beauty of America is that it's structure checks both the citizens' and their government's propensity for power and enslavement of their fellow man. (That was from John W. Chalfant.) Therefore the authority comes from the Bible. ANd while the Declaration ws being signed, Samual Adams said:

"We have this day restored teh Sovereignty to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His Kingdom come." (From The People Shall Judge, Readings in the Formation of AMerican Policy, Vol I University of Chicago)]

bill fleming

So we agree. The authority of Government comes from the people. And not all people who write anonymously are irresponsible. That was easy. Thanks Sibby. (p.s. I don't dispute that most Americans are Christians who believe in God.)

[Sibby's response: No Bill, we don't agree. I said the authority comes from God so that the majority of people don't trample on the rights of the minority, as is the risk when the authority comes from people. America is a Christian Republic, and not a pure democracy.]

bill fleming

"It is the role of government officials to protect the God given rights of all."

Correct.

Whether they are Christians or not, and whether they accept the authority of God or not.

[Sibby's response: Whether they are Christians or not...right. If they violate the authority of God, the role of government is to protect its citizens from the law breakers.]

bill fleming

"Prager called the hate-filled anonymous “lies, vitriol, obscenities and ad hominem attacks” found today as “irresponsible”, not illegal."

I know, I read that.

He also concluded his article with a far more generalized platitude, to wit:

"Being identifiable breeds responsibility; anonymity breeds irresponsibility."

It is that conclusion that I am questioning.

And in that light I ASKED, whether Prager would think that the Founders were irresponsible by writing anonymously, and further, by inference, whether the fact that they did so "breeds irresponsibility" in others.

It is a legitimate and honest question, not a lie, unless you think asking questions is lying. Most people don't think it is.

I'm just saying Prager's general assertion doesn't stand up to reason. It is a half-baked conclusion at best. You should be glad you didn't say it, Steve.

[Sibby's response: Again you use half-truth to create lies. The operative word is "breed". Anonymous is not irresponsible behavior in and of itself, it "breeds" irresponsible behavior. Got it now? Or do you have more tricks up your sleeve?]

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